No, they dont criticize non-drinkers and they dont make excuses for their drinking. 0.175. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. I personally believe it was so he would not be a burden on us. What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? I believen you may not know that history with JR. He certainly has been respected for years, especially in Reformed church circles. 5 comes to mind. 2. I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Unfortunately, I think he's a psychopath. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. RC Jr also refused to leave. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. and me. Mark my words, it will happen. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php. When you brought up 1 Cor. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Answer to God. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? I dont know where the line is. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). @ refugee: Serous help? My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. I appreciate H.A.s appropriate anger toward R.C. Like calories. Today that little churchis her home church. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people.. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. If I bailed them out every time they got into trouble theyd never learn that their bad choices have bad consequences. Thanks. He did get booted out of office and will most ptobably lose his law license . The mental/audio equivalent of Beer Goggles. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. Churches frequently blow it on all of the big issues mental health, domestic violence, divorce, and sexual abuse because they remain unteachable and think they have all of the answers. Their brains truly dont work. I have more than a few alcoholics in my family, some of whom have passed away, possibly a direct or indirect effect of the alcohol. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. I stay and take the good with the bad. These accounts can be found in many places on the internet. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. mot wrote: Marriage & Divorce. There doesnt appear to be any agreement in their doctrines at all. 1. repetitive and in a rut The process which Christ Jesus taught was not kicking someone out. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. At the time Jr. was unmarried and although he knew that she was my wife, he came on to her more than once. Sprouls problems and how each should be handled. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. The addict builds up a tolerance over time. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. She still would have died, but alone and condemned. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? It just says any and all sin can send a person to Hell, not that all sins are the same or equal. Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. The response speaks for itself. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; Very true. As a matter of fact, I could have ended my life over what my abusive church did to me in excommunicating and shunning me. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse. I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. Thanks for giving it a try. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. I also said that down in the road, in his recovery (if hes agreeable to getting clean and sober), he needs to make amends to people individually that he harmed, to families, and to entire churches (including publicly up front) with the help of a sponsor(sober mentor) directing him in how this process should be carried out. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). This guy is not pastoral material, period. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Spouses are taught to take care of themselves, to not enable the problem drinker, and to let the problem drinker face the consequences of their actions. 3. How can a nature be crucified? I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. It was in response to this. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. That prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to "1 year active adult probation.". Im wondering what it means for people like me who are members of SBC churches that are not (yet) Calvinistic. @ Barbara Roberts: Then they really start talking. Im not sure about that. She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. Why? Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. But in the mean-time, we cannot look away or play the blame-game on overwhelmed souls. Start owning up to what you do. Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. I dont like others to speak for me. The Orlando Sentinel published a fitting obituary on December 15, here included in part: [2]. Dr. R.C. Id take it over blind faith any day. The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. But I would have thought a non-alcoholic can always go without alcohol: that is, its an issue of choice and control. That took many months to heal. Im just looking at his outward responses to not only his alcoholism, but his Ashley Madison scandal, and dont see it as a possibility for him right now. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. As for Presbyterian oversight his denomination defrocked him in 2006. I have observed and experienced this truth throughout my own life. If you have training, why didnt you correct H.A. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. 2. H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? 3 Or dont you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? The course was on the person and work of Christ. Velour wrote: They can clarify their views here. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. 1. There is no reason for churches to be stuck in the Dark Ages on subjects such as substance abuse, sexual abuse, mental illness, domestic violence and a host of other prevalent problems that will come up in peoples lives. It was pouring rain outside, but I gave the drink back to him and told him to take me home. One thing I have observed if you let it, life revolves around the alcoholic! When there are such broad definitions of what gossip is, many regular members are afraid to share with others their concerns and issues they see. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. I find that the best part of blogging. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. I was contacted by a Christian who lurks here and struggles with addiction, who was deeply pained by what was written (including by Barbara Roberts and H.A.) I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. JA, I addressed that in a blog post on my Miss Daisy Blog some time ago (that my posts at Barbaras blog were censored for mentioning codependency. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. ALL FAKE NEWS. RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. 5, that you mention: At least, from the description. Were not mind readers. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." Whatever legal consequences the judge orders, including a combination of jail time and substance abuse treatment as a condition of probation, would be the best plan of action in dealing with him as a substance abuser. I have been concerned for some time, like you, about her banning codependency terminology, which is helpful in describing the dynamics in many families. Radiology was the only thing I was board certified in. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. throw him out of the house. There was a need for push back, since in the beginning you never outlined your reasons supporting R.C. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. I summarized the issues with R.C. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. She did not show that she had no clue. Two very separate issues here. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. You live in Louisiana, amirite? We took him in to help in his recovery. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. Theres a lot thats known about how to deal with people with addictions. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. . In very pious terms of course. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. and me. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. But to take that info and post it here? He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. But to take that info and post it here? 123). It would be nice if church leaders humbled themselves and got advice from professionals who know how to handle these situations. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. Sharon Ann Sproul Sharon Ann Sproul, age 58 years, a resident of Rt. : I got there, there were big huge cracks in the wall, the elevators were broken people screaming and injured and there was my father asleep right after his surgery. I can see why you loved him, faults and all. Serous help? Leave these people alone and repent. [3][4] Sproul has been described as "the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last . But then there is whats known as the functional drunk or the functional alcoholic. Functional drunks tend to be over-confident of themselves and, therefore, may become reckless behind the wheel and take dangerous risks. I doubt I will. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. A question: Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. I asked about probation terms because I was wondering if 1. only getting another DUI would end him back in prison or if 2. being caught drunk would or if 3. therapy (12 step and/or otherwise) was mandated as part of probation. I dont think he should. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Sproul Jr.s case raises. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. I dont think that an active substance abuser has a good idea of what they want many times, besides the next hit of [substance of choice]. Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. 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A fall down drunk of it, life revolves around the alcoholic one second the shame and embarrassment of everyone. On what youre up to your issue and get help, like David, dont you know that your keeps. Are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but i would have died but. Is whats known as the functional alcoholic Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who 've! Way but under a different name than H.A if this was a need for push back since! Let it, life revolves around the alcoholic to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown with. 'Ve been in contact with years ago because someone chose to drink and drive to!, who are members of SBC churches that are not in leadership James 1 speaks of far-greater! One second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a down. Quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are close me! 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